Season Three
Episode 91
General Music with Danielle Larrick
Danielle Larrick's Bio:
Danielle E. Larrick is a musician-educator in her 13th year of teaching who believes in the value of middle school music as a means of identify, expression, and connection. She focuses on designing practical, innovative, and engaging music curricula for middle school students.
Danielle received a Bachelor of Music in Music Education, with a concentration in Voice, from Temple University. Upon graduation, she served as the K-8 music teacher in an urban Philadelphia Charter School for two years. During this time she formed an after-school vocal ensemble and worked with local non-profits, such as Musicopia, to provide additional musical experiences for her students.
She currently teaches at Gerald Huesken Middle School, where she directs the 7th and 8th grade choirs and teaches general music. In 2016, she earned a Master of Music in Music Education from The University of the Arts. Motivated by the ever-changing trends in education and a desire to meet the various needs of her students, Danielle continues to further her learning through courses and trainings. She has completed training in the hybrid/rotational model, which she utilizes within her general music classes. Danielle has a passion for working with pre-service and new teachers. She currently serves on the PMEA Mentorship Committee. She has also published an e-book and resources with F-flat books.
TRANSCRIPT OF THE SHOW
Jessica: Danielle I'm really excited to talk with you about general music and about choir today. Thanks for being here.
Danielle: Thank you for having me. I'm very excited.
Jessica: Me too! Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do as a music educator?
Danielle: Absolutely. Absolutely. I started out. I went to Temple University and graduated from Temple with a degree in music ed and a concentration in voice. After graduating from Temple I got a job in Philadelphia in a charter school so for two years I was a K-8 music teacher so I had a wide range of ages. You know was a great starting experience because it gave me a great snippet of each age group and what I like and let me feel out a lot of different perspectives right off the bat. So from there I moved back to Lancaster which is I'm originally from the Newark area so I got back to this area and was fortunate enough to find a job teaching middle school music - 7th and 8th grade music and then also directing both of the choirs at my school and so I've been there ever since. This is about my 13th year total teaching - two years at K-8 and the rest of the time middle school. And during that time I decided I wanted to go back and pursue my graduate degree so I did that at University of the Arts which was such a great experience and so wonderful. So I pursued my masters and got my masters in music ed and just really loved that program because to me it was really eye opening and really applicable to my classroom and that's what I loved about the program was that I could take back so many things I was learning right away. So I earned my masters degree and really have just been teaching what I have done for the last 11 years since then and so it's been great and I feel like I've grown, but I continue to grow and learn and every day is a learning experience which is what keeps me engaged and excited about what I do.
Jessica: I am a huge believer that you never stop learning, but even as you go you're just constantly pursuing to be better and yeah...
Danielle: It's funny because I always say it's like a blessing and a curse because every year I'm like I have a to redo that and that's gotta be better and then I get on these tangents of making things better. Sometimes like in the middle of the year - which I think is a good thing if we look at it - but I know sometimes personally you almost get on this hamster wheel of trying to make it better as you go, but that's what keeps it fun for me and just learning and seeing what other people are doing and being inspired by other music educators I think that's one of the best parts of our job so...
Jessica: I agree! I agree! So what do you love about working with middle schoolers in the general music class?
Danielle: Oh man. I know. Everyone's like general music. Ugh! I say to me it's like my favorite thing I do. I love chorus, but I really love general music because I think the inspiring and exciting thing is watching students who don't view themselves as a "musician" watching those students find something that they latch onto musically and realize maybe something about themselves that they never thought of before and especially at that middle school age. I think that's the biggest thing. And elementary to me there's no fear. There's no reserve and they just go with the flow and in middle school it's this 'I don't play an instrument,' 'I'm not in a chorus,' 'I don't view myself as a musician' and so I think watching students find something or helping them to find one - even if it's just one little thing that they feel great about in my music class is what keeps me going and what inspires me to keep changing what I do to meet them where they are. And that's a big thing for me and I tell all of my students that and this was sort of a paradigm shift for myself maybe... I don't know maybe three years ago that I started rewording what I would say to my students and how I said things. I always start every trimester with "...even though you are not an ensemble, you don't take a lesson, everybody in this room is a musician. It just is. We're all making musicians on different paths or different experience, but you're all a musician." That's a big thing that I've tried to instill and I try to instill as I teach them along the way.
Jessica: Yeah. I teach in a middle school as well so I'm grades 5-8 and it's focuses mostly on the Orff approach and even my students will consider themselves well I'm not a musician because I'm not as good as so-and-so. Like you said I don't take private lessons so if you play piano then you're a musician or they have this perception of what they are and are not by middle school and it's hard to break that that I guess you'd say that paradigm for them and so I love that you start off by telling them that they are a musician cause I think once they believe that or once they understand that a musician is a broad term then they're more open to going okay I can do this or it might look differently.
Jessica: Yeah. And you do something that I find really interesting in your general music classes. You do what is called a hybrid rotational model. Can you share what that is? Because I love when you post on Instagram and you share ideas that you're doing and I'm like 'oh that's really interesting!'
Danielle: Right. Right. I think that's a part of and I'll go back to that throughout the trimester and say that. For trying something that they feel nervous about or they might feel like isn't something they're going to be good at, I'll say to them individually. Just a reminder we talked about this. It might be something different than you're used to and it might feel scary to try this, but we're going to go with it and see where it takes us. Oftentimes once they see a product or they see a progression of what they're working on, they're excited by it so that's one of my favorite things about that age group.
Jessica: Do you have an example of like a topic or something that you and how you would work the three stations?
Danielle: Yeah, this is something that was new, I guess, last year and was sort of a district initiative and a lot of the core subjects were doing this and we kind of talked as a team - my colleagues and I - and I said, "I don't know. It might be interesting to just see what this is about," and I could see some positives to it and I could certainly see, I wouldn't say negatives, but things that might not be applicable in our classrooms. Again I'm always interested in learning and trying things so we did go through a training and spend some days working and looking at different models and different techniques and things. So basically in the model there are three stations. Three different areas. And there's a direct station. A collaborative station. An independent station. And so students rotate through those for a class or two classes.
It depends how much time you have and how many students there are and what you're looking to do. We did implement it last year pretty heavily and it came with some growing pains as with anything. I found there were things that were great and then there were things that I thought this doesn't work with what we're doing. And so this year it's been I would say I'm using it more geared toward what we're doing and depends on the activity and what we're learning, but there's some really great things about it in terms of getting to work with students in a small group. If it's a bigger class and I'm able to kind of pull students into a small group and really work with them and spend...even if it's just 10 minutes of dedicated time to say, "here's what we're working on. How can I help you? What do you need from me?" And then it gives students time to do what we already do which is collaborate. That independent aspect for me was practice which is a hard thing for students even if they are in a music ensemble, to learn how to practice. Giving them let's say 10 minutes of kind of guided practice of here's what I want you to work on. Here's what skill we're building and to kind of set that up, but not have that be 40 minutes or everyone in the class is doing it at once. And then to be able to bring them up to me and say, "How'd your practice go? What were you struggling with? What do you need help with?" And so it was a really great learning experience for me to try some new things and implement it.
So it's definitely something I'm not doing on an everyday basis. Sometimes when people see this they think, "Oh my gosh! You do this every day?" And I don't anymore, but I've found some really great ways to keep some of that going and change my instruction to benefit the kids. They really liked it as well. I did ask their feedback and they were pretty excited about it and I felt like we were getting more out of the classes when we used that and were able to really able to benefit from that. It's great!
Jessica: Do you have an example of like a topic or something and how you would work the three stations?
Danielle: Sure. So ukulele is one where we use it a lot. We have four elementary schools. Two of them do ukulele and two of them are kind of focused on other things. So when we have students in middle school in our 7th grade classes and we break out the ukuleles, I have students that are have some pretty significant experience and some who are like, "what's a ukulele?" This is a great way to have them work through a variety of activities so I might have students that are up with me learning chords and it depends what those chords are depending on their experience. In the collaborative station I like to have them choose a song out of songs that I've selected. A variety of levels. What I find tends to happen is there's an element of peer teaching that occurs and that's so fun for me to watch. Where it's like 'oh yeah! I know that chord. Here let me show you.' And then they're teaching each other and so that's really great. Then in the back I might have something - it might be like an independent composition or an assessment time where I'll have them do like a Flipgrid video of playing. If we're just starting out, C-F-G7 for example. I might set it up and say 'Hey, when you're at the independent section today you're going to get your ukulele. You have practice if you need. Then you're going to record your three chord pass off demonstration. And then they have that time to practice or record or even work ahead because some students might say, "I'm ready to do that right now. Can I record right away?" And then use that time to build a new skill and everything. I find that the set-up is a little bit more. It is time consuming to get all of that set-up as it is with any station, but once it becomes sort of this well oiled machine and they're used to doing it and they know, it's really great. It allows them to kind of, you know, which is one of the big things - it allows them to drive their own learning and kind of take them where they need to be. So that's really - that's really neat to watch as well.
Jessica: Yeah. That's so neat. And then do you assess? How do you do assessment after they've completed it? Do you use the Flipgrid mostly or when they come to you and work with you?
Danielle: Sure. I've done a little bit of both. Sometimes it depends on the class. Sometimes I find it's like, "Wow." When they come to me, I'm going to do it because it's time that I have to do it right there. If I can assess them right then and there, that's my preference for sure. Just on my end of things to keep it moving and not have to go back and watch all of the videos later. That's really a nice time saver I will say. So I do it that way, but if I need to... if I'm working on stomehitng or even just a formative assessment and I just go through quickly and it's not maybe a major assessment, a Flipgrid or even just a couple of questions like in a google form or google doc, I will use it that way as well. So it's a little bit of both. It kinds of depends on the class and the activity, but I definitely prefer if I can do it right then and there, but if it's something where it's maybe just a few questions or something like that I'll have them do that at the independent and it's a nice way for them to take care of that in that sense.
Jessica: Yeah. I love this too because I feel like it could be used in elementary classrooms as well.
Danielle: Absolutely. And in our district there are definitely some elementary school classrooms that use this and I know another districts in our areas as well. When we went to the training it wasn't just our district. It was a variety of schools from our area and levels. So music was just one of those ones where I was like - let's explore it. Why not?! We don't have to be a core subject to get more training in this and see it and the kids are using it in other classes so they're aware of it. And they're used to it because it takes some work on their part to kind of figure out how it works, but it definitely - there's a sense of ownership on them to say "I'm working with a group. If you're with a group in collaborative then my energy and my focus is right here. You're going to have to maybe work through some things before you come to me and say, "Hey we are struggling with this." There's sort of that element of ownership for them that I like as well. Especially in middle school because they're quick to say, "I don't get it!" They come to you for that answer so it's nice to see them kind of work through those things and use those problem solving skills.
Jessica: I think so too. And I love the idea of the peer teaching 'cause I see that a lot in my classroom where if they can initiate their peers and they know something or sometimes they know something I don't know where they're like I'm taking guitar lessons and I know this chord here and I'm like great - show us. I love that student leadership side of it.
Danielle: And I think that's great for those students that have that because I think sometimes in the general classroom setting they sometimes feel like, "I already know this stuff," and so I encourage them and I'll even have my kids sometimes raise their hands. Who has played the ukulele before? Where are my piano players? Not to single them out, but to encourage them and to motivate them to say, "You can be a teacher here and you can answer questions." It's great to see and sometimes it's great to see a student partnership that sort of forms and the information I find - it comes more from another student sometimes than from us. They will listen to that other student a little more and in a great way because they have a different perspective about teaching it than we do. They have a different way of presenting that information so I'll just sit back and watch - well not sit back - but you know within reason, but you know I'll kind of say... I'll sort of see how they teach it because I want to see how they convey the information. It's a learning experience for me as well so that's a really amazing thing to watch in my classroom.
Jessica: I agree. Sometimes they do it more simplistically and I would have gone off and explained it in all of this detail and they'd be like 'what' compared to use a simple answer and the kids just get it and I love that. Yeah.
Danielle: And I - you tend to get bogged down in the technicality of what's happening and they're like here, "Just do this - this - and this." Yeah - okay. You sort of have to let the teacher aspect and the pedagogy of what we know and why we know it and how to do it. We have to let that be, but it's hard to do but I think there's something sort of freeing in watching your students sometimes learn and that sense. It's great about what we do.
Jessica: And how long did you say each station is before they rotate? Or does that change depending on activity?
Danielle: I've tried it a couple of different ways. I have found there is a class - maybe a half a class. My periods are 40 minutes long so I find that like 20 minutes to explain it if you really want it to run well and have the students be independent and know what they're doing. To have about 20 minutes to explain it. I display an agenda and post it as well and that's one of the things that's part of this model. So I'll have like three different columns for a direct, independent, and collaborative. And I have that displayed and then posted as well so that they can bring those things up. They encourage us to link anything that they're going to need so it's right there in the agenda so if it's a play along video for ukulele I'll have that linked or even if I can right into the agenda. So I spend 15-20 minutes going over it and then maybe we do one station that day. And then finish up with 2 stations the next class and then maybe sometimes they just need more time at a station so it might be 15 minutes of make-up time - whatever you didn't get to do. Or now you've got some extra time to build a skill you're working on. So that's what I've found works best. If you're going to use something like that. It takes time so if you haven't done it in a while and now you're using it, they get used to it so it kind of becomes a routine for them and the expectations. So if I take a break from it and then implement it, it takes a little more time to get back in that routine. As with anything that we do. But that has been the method for me I have found works the best if I'm going to implement a lesson like that in my class.
Jessica: And then once they've done all of the stations, do they ever perform a piece together in class or where do you go from there once they've experienced it all?
Danielle: Sure. So a lot of what I do... geez this is always... this is a tricky thing for me. If it's a performance - a demo - I usually let them do it for me. Sometimes I keep it very informal. I try to keep everything. I don't even - I try not to and it's hard to break this habit - I try not to even use the word performance with my class because I find there's a stigma attached to it of very formalized happening or sharing of what they're doing. So I try to watch my wording and I try to use 'demo' or just 'share out.' Even if I'm using it as something that I would expect to be more formalized or summative assessment of what they've been learning. Sometimes I'll just have them demonstrate for me. I'll have them come up in their group and say... For example my 8th graders do a blues song where they write the lyrics and they accompany themselves on the ukulele with the 12 bar blues. So after maybe they go through the stations and they've had some time to collaborate and work, they'll come up to me and in their group they'll share out what they've done. Sometimes it's more - with a class my 7th graders - they do their drumming rhythm workshop, they'll play something that we've worked on as a class so they have to put their own spin on it as a group. So we learn it as a class, but then I encourage them kind of go through. They have to make musical decisions of how they're going to start. How they're going to end it. I'm not there anymore to help. What are you going to do? Are you going to come up with an introduction?
And then we'll share those out. We'll just go around the room and then very informal we'll just do that. In 8th grade I do have them get. They do a cover band song and they have to come up and play for their classmates. Just because it is a little bit of accountability there when they know they're going to have to share it out and play for everybody else. So I do try some sort of demonstration of course of what they've learned and practiced so that i can see and that other students can see as well. It's a nice way to do it as well and sometimes I even ask for volunteers. So if I hear them and hear something great, I'll say, "Would you mind playing that for everybody? That's so great. Can you share that out?" And let them decide that then. And that takes some of the pressure away maybe from everyone having to do it. I always go back and forth on it. I've vacillated between what I want to do. It's hard, but my end goal is always I want them to walk away with a great experience in my class. That hopefully fuels them to continue music in some way shape or form. Whether it's as a consuming or a maker of music and so it's not worth me having anyone feel pressured or anxious to some extent of doing it in front of their peers. So yeah - that's one thing that I always go back and forth on as an educator, but that's sort of where I've found a balance for now. For now. I always say for now that's what I'm doing. That may change. My perspective may change. For now that's how we're doing it.
Jessica: I love the idea of calling it a demo because I'll say the word, "okay we're going to practice." 'Cause we do music sharing - we don't call them performances at our school. Yeah. We call them music sharing because it's like we're sharing where we are right now. If we had continued to work on it, it would look different over time and we could keep working on things, but instead this is like this is where we are now and this is a demonstration of what we've done with it at this point. I love the idea of calling it a demo - just demoing - because I feel like that does take the pressure out of it. Because I'll do the same. I'll have my students share things in class and it might never - a lot of what we do doesn't even end up being shared with parents or anything.
Danielle: Right. Right. Which I would love to and every year I say I'm going to do this. And that's something I would love to do or a goal is to share with the parents more. And share out what their students are doing because I think it's so valuable and sometimes they're shocked when I have shared. And I with their permission say, "Do you mind if I record that and send to your parents?" Sometimes I'll even ask - I haven't done it as much recent - but I'll ask, "Does anybody want me to record this and send this on an email?" And you know I'll get a few students that want to share it and I'll make a point just to say, "Hey I wanted to say your student's doing an awesome job. Here's what they did today." So that's a neat thing to see, but yeah there's this element of just - they sort of do it for the class and then that's it as opposed to when we're in an ensemble setting and they know we're going to have a concert. There's this very formalized sharing of what they've done. It's so different in a music class.
Jessica: And I think we can get hung up on performances as well where it's like if we're only every working for the performance you, I don't know, you lose some of the musical learning that could be done and just enjoyed too. So I don't know. But I also find too if students know I don't know like with my 5th and 6th graders and sometimes my 7th graders if they know a sharing is happening and we still have 2 weeks of class they're like 'What are we going to do because we've already performed' and you're like but the learning doesn't stop at your performance, you know?! You can still grow after that performance. We still have plenty of things to learn and to create. Teaching them that process and that the learning never ends because you had their sharing. I always tell them like after your math test do you stop doing math? No you have your math test and then you continue practicing those skills. You never get rid of addition, subtraction, multiplication. It's the same in music - you keep working on it.
Danielle: Right. And I think us sharing as educators things that we're learning too and showing that we're realizing things and working on things ourselves is so important. I just had that with my students the other day where I was repeating something and it was related to solfege and I was like, "Oh my gosh! Why do we not do that? That makes so much sense!" I went into rehearsal and, of course, their enthusiasm may not have been shared as I was like, "Oh my gosh!" This aha moment, but I said, "I'm sharing this with you not because I expect you to be excited about what I'm telling you necessarily, but because I want you to know that I'm working on things to help you get better. To help us get better as an ensemble." And so I think that there's an element of learning alongside of them that is important and at that level. At a middle school level. I think there's a little respect and something that they can kind of connect with. And they're at an age where we can share that with them and say, "Hey we're learning too! We want to get better. We are improving and we are learning as teachers." And I think that it becomes a little more of a two way street which is nice and I think is really important as well.
Jessica: Yeah I think that's valuable for them to see as well. Do you think - and you've shared several things already - but do you think there's anything you can say has been really successful with students in this model or this learning environment?
Danielle: Sure. I think my biggest thing and I think this is a self-realization and is probably nothing highly musical in terms of what I'm going to say, but I think it's okay for things to be messy. I think it's okay for your classroom to be loud and for a lot of sound to be happening and I think that's a shift in my own thought process. When I started teaching I wanted everything to be very orderly and you know, not to say that chaos needs to ensue by any means. But I think that there's an element when you're standing back and kind of watching things happen and then practice and then make mistakes and you're right there with them and saying, "I'm not sure if this is really going to work out," but some of my favorite things that I teach and some of my favorite workshops that I do when I think about the first time that I did them... were probably a disaster in all honesty and they still are not perfect, but I love that kind of organic - watching this sort of grow and evolve and talking to the students. Seeing what's happening. And I think that sometimes we have to let go of that control for something great to come out of it. And I think that's been a big challenge for me. And a big kind of a like I said at the beginning - a big paradigm shift because I would say probably for the first ten years of my teaching, I probably had a very different perspective if I were to write out what I thought and how I was going to teach or what I was going to teach than how I do things now. And what things are important for my students. But I think that's kind of my biggest thing is it's okay for it to be messy and not go well and not be perfect. And start from scratch. And tell your students that. This is the first time that we're doing this and it might not go well, but I want your feedback. And I think that's where middle school becomes a challenge for people because we expect it to be so orderly and have this very rigid expectation. Letting go of that and kind of seeing what comes of it - I think that's the biggest asset and the biggest positive of that age. Because they can handle some of that and they can take that on and realize what you're doing. That you're trying something to better their learning experience. That's what I've found
Jessica: Yeah. And I think the messy too it's like you said - it doesn't mean that chaos is going on. There's a plan there. Students have things they're working on, but I do find that my classroom is not the quietest classroom in the entire school because it's not like they're reading novels in english or sitting. They're creating music with instruments and voices and so doing a lot of times - and especially if you're in three different areas working on three different things. It can still be structured learning if there's sound going on.
Danielle: Right. Right. So it's always challenging. It's not an easy thing to let go of and as teachers we thrive on organization. We thrive on order. Having a plan. But I think that sometimes that the best plans happen when you're not expecting something. Or it falls apart and then you're rebuilding it because it fell apart. You're making things better and if I'm working with a student teacher that's one of the first things I tell them. It's not going to go by the plan many days. More often than not, but that ability to adapt and change and go with the flow is so important.
Jessica: Absolutely.
Episode 91
General Music with Danielle Larrick
Danielle Larrick's Bio:
Danielle E. Larrick is a musician-educator in her 13th year of teaching who believes in the value of middle school music as a means of identify, expression, and connection. She focuses on designing practical, innovative, and engaging music curricula for middle school students.
Danielle received a Bachelor of Music in Music Education, with a concentration in Voice, from Temple University. Upon graduation, she served as the K-8 music teacher in an urban Philadelphia Charter School for two years. During this time she formed an after-school vocal ensemble and worked with local non-profits, such as Musicopia, to provide additional musical experiences for her students.
She currently teaches at Gerald Huesken Middle School, where she directs the 7th and 8th grade choirs and teaches general music. In 2016, she earned a Master of Music in Music Education from The University of the Arts. Motivated by the ever-changing trends in education and a desire to meet the various needs of her students, Danielle continues to further her learning through courses and trainings. She has completed training in the hybrid/rotational model, which she utilizes within her general music classes. Danielle has a passion for working with pre-service and new teachers. She currently serves on the PMEA Mentorship Committee. She has also published an e-book and resources with F-flat books.
TRANSCRIPT OF THE SHOW
Jessica: Danielle I'm really excited to talk with you about general music and about choir today. Thanks for being here.
Danielle: Thank you for having me. I'm very excited.
Jessica: Me too! Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do as a music educator?
Danielle: Absolutely. Absolutely. I started out. I went to Temple University and graduated from Temple with a degree in music ed and a concentration in voice. After graduating from Temple I got a job in Philadelphia in a charter school so for two years I was a K-8 music teacher so I had a wide range of ages. You know was a great starting experience because it gave me a great snippet of each age group and what I like and let me feel out a lot of different perspectives right off the bat. So from there I moved back to Lancaster which is I'm originally from the Newark area so I got back to this area and was fortunate enough to find a job teaching middle school music - 7th and 8th grade music and then also directing both of the choirs at my school and so I've been there ever since. This is about my 13th year total teaching - two years at K-8 and the rest of the time middle school. And during that time I decided I wanted to go back and pursue my graduate degree so I did that at University of the Arts which was such a great experience and so wonderful. So I pursued my masters and got my masters in music ed and just really loved that program because to me it was really eye opening and really applicable to my classroom and that's what I loved about the program was that I could take back so many things I was learning right away. So I earned my masters degree and really have just been teaching what I have done for the last 11 years since then and so it's been great and I feel like I've grown, but I continue to grow and learn and every day is a learning experience which is what keeps me engaged and excited about what I do.
Jessica: I am a huge believer that you never stop learning, but even as you go you're just constantly pursuing to be better and yeah...
Danielle: It's funny because I always say it's like a blessing and a curse because every year I'm like I have a to redo that and that's gotta be better and then I get on these tangents of making things better. Sometimes like in the middle of the year - which I think is a good thing if we look at it - but I know sometimes personally you almost get on this hamster wheel of trying to make it better as you go, but that's what keeps it fun for me and just learning and seeing what other people are doing and being inspired by other music educators I think that's one of the best parts of our job so...
Jessica: I agree! I agree! So what do you love about working with middle schoolers in the general music class?
Danielle: Oh man. I know. Everyone's like general music. Ugh! I say to me it's like my favorite thing I do. I love chorus, but I really love general music because I think the inspiring and exciting thing is watching students who don't view themselves as a "musician" watching those students find something that they latch onto musically and realize maybe something about themselves that they never thought of before and especially at that middle school age. I think that's the biggest thing. And elementary to me there's no fear. There's no reserve and they just go with the flow and in middle school it's this 'I don't play an instrument,' 'I'm not in a chorus,' 'I don't view myself as a musician' and so I think watching students find something or helping them to find one - even if it's just one little thing that they feel great about in my music class is what keeps me going and what inspires me to keep changing what I do to meet them where they are. And that's a big thing for me and I tell all of my students that and this was sort of a paradigm shift for myself maybe... I don't know maybe three years ago that I started rewording what I would say to my students and how I said things. I always start every trimester with "...even though you are not an ensemble, you don't take a lesson, everybody in this room is a musician. It just is. We're all making musicians on different paths or different experience, but you're all a musician." That's a big thing that I've tried to instill and I try to instill as I teach them along the way.
Jessica: Yeah. I teach in a middle school as well so I'm grades 5-8 and it's focuses mostly on the Orff approach and even my students will consider themselves well I'm not a musician because I'm not as good as so-and-so. Like you said I don't take private lessons so if you play piano then you're a musician or they have this perception of what they are and are not by middle school and it's hard to break that that I guess you'd say that paradigm for them and so I love that you start off by telling them that they are a musician cause I think once they believe that or once they understand that a musician is a broad term then they're more open to going okay I can do this or it might look differently.
Jessica: Yeah. And you do something that I find really interesting in your general music classes. You do what is called a hybrid rotational model. Can you share what that is? Because I love when you post on Instagram and you share ideas that you're doing and I'm like 'oh that's really interesting!'
Danielle: Right. Right. I think that's a part of and I'll go back to that throughout the trimester and say that. For trying something that they feel nervous about or they might feel like isn't something they're going to be good at, I'll say to them individually. Just a reminder we talked about this. It might be something different than you're used to and it might feel scary to try this, but we're going to go with it and see where it takes us. Oftentimes once they see a product or they see a progression of what they're working on, they're excited by it so that's one of my favorite things about that age group.
Jessica: Do you have an example of like a topic or something that you and how you would work the three stations?
Danielle: Yeah, this is something that was new, I guess, last year and was sort of a district initiative and a lot of the core subjects were doing this and we kind of talked as a team - my colleagues and I - and I said, "I don't know. It might be interesting to just see what this is about," and I could see some positives to it and I could certainly see, I wouldn't say negatives, but things that might not be applicable in our classrooms. Again I'm always interested in learning and trying things so we did go through a training and spend some days working and looking at different models and different techniques and things. So basically in the model there are three stations. Three different areas. And there's a direct station. A collaborative station. An independent station. And so students rotate through those for a class or two classes.
It depends how much time you have and how many students there are and what you're looking to do. We did implement it last year pretty heavily and it came with some growing pains as with anything. I found there were things that were great and then there were things that I thought this doesn't work with what we're doing. And so this year it's been I would say I'm using it more geared toward what we're doing and depends on the activity and what we're learning, but there's some really great things about it in terms of getting to work with students in a small group. If it's a bigger class and I'm able to kind of pull students into a small group and really work with them and spend...even if it's just 10 minutes of dedicated time to say, "here's what we're working on. How can I help you? What do you need from me?" And then it gives students time to do what we already do which is collaborate. That independent aspect for me was practice which is a hard thing for students even if they are in a music ensemble, to learn how to practice. Giving them let's say 10 minutes of kind of guided practice of here's what I want you to work on. Here's what skill we're building and to kind of set that up, but not have that be 40 minutes or everyone in the class is doing it at once. And then to be able to bring them up to me and say, "How'd your practice go? What were you struggling with? What do you need help with?" And so it was a really great learning experience for me to try some new things and implement it.
So it's definitely something I'm not doing on an everyday basis. Sometimes when people see this they think, "Oh my gosh! You do this every day?" And I don't anymore, but I've found some really great ways to keep some of that going and change my instruction to benefit the kids. They really liked it as well. I did ask their feedback and they were pretty excited about it and I felt like we were getting more out of the classes when we used that and were able to really able to benefit from that. It's great!
Jessica: Do you have an example of like a topic or something and how you would work the three stations?
Danielle: Sure. So ukulele is one where we use it a lot. We have four elementary schools. Two of them do ukulele and two of them are kind of focused on other things. So when we have students in middle school in our 7th grade classes and we break out the ukuleles, I have students that are have some pretty significant experience and some who are like, "what's a ukulele?" This is a great way to have them work through a variety of activities so I might have students that are up with me learning chords and it depends what those chords are depending on their experience. In the collaborative station I like to have them choose a song out of songs that I've selected. A variety of levels. What I find tends to happen is there's an element of peer teaching that occurs and that's so fun for me to watch. Where it's like 'oh yeah! I know that chord. Here let me show you.' And then they're teaching each other and so that's really great. Then in the back I might have something - it might be like an independent composition or an assessment time where I'll have them do like a Flipgrid video of playing. If we're just starting out, C-F-G7 for example. I might set it up and say 'Hey, when you're at the independent section today you're going to get your ukulele. You have practice if you need. Then you're going to record your three chord pass off demonstration. And then they have that time to practice or record or even work ahead because some students might say, "I'm ready to do that right now. Can I record right away?" And then use that time to build a new skill and everything. I find that the set-up is a little bit more. It is time consuming to get all of that set-up as it is with any station, but once it becomes sort of this well oiled machine and they're used to doing it and they know, it's really great. It allows them to kind of, you know, which is one of the big things - it allows them to drive their own learning and kind of take them where they need to be. So that's really - that's really neat to watch as well.
Jessica: Yeah. That's so neat. And then do you assess? How do you do assessment after they've completed it? Do you use the Flipgrid mostly or when they come to you and work with you?
Danielle: Sure. I've done a little bit of both. Sometimes it depends on the class. Sometimes I find it's like, "Wow." When they come to me, I'm going to do it because it's time that I have to do it right there. If I can assess them right then and there, that's my preference for sure. Just on my end of things to keep it moving and not have to go back and watch all of the videos later. That's really a nice time saver I will say. So I do it that way, but if I need to... if I'm working on stomehitng or even just a formative assessment and I just go through quickly and it's not maybe a major assessment, a Flipgrid or even just a couple of questions like in a google form or google doc, I will use it that way as well. So it's a little bit of both. It kinds of depends on the class and the activity, but I definitely prefer if I can do it right then and there, but if it's something where it's maybe just a few questions or something like that I'll have them do that at the independent and it's a nice way for them to take care of that in that sense.
Jessica: Yeah. I love this too because I feel like it could be used in elementary classrooms as well.
Danielle: Absolutely. And in our district there are definitely some elementary school classrooms that use this and I know another districts in our areas as well. When we went to the training it wasn't just our district. It was a variety of schools from our area and levels. So music was just one of those ones where I was like - let's explore it. Why not?! We don't have to be a core subject to get more training in this and see it and the kids are using it in other classes so they're aware of it. And they're used to it because it takes some work on their part to kind of figure out how it works, but it definitely - there's a sense of ownership on them to say "I'm working with a group. If you're with a group in collaborative then my energy and my focus is right here. You're going to have to maybe work through some things before you come to me and say, "Hey we are struggling with this." There's sort of that element of ownership for them that I like as well. Especially in middle school because they're quick to say, "I don't get it!" They come to you for that answer so it's nice to see them kind of work through those things and use those problem solving skills.Jessica: I think so too. And I love the idea of the peer teaching 'cause I see that a lot in my classroom where if they can initiate their peers and they know something or sometimes they know something I don't know where they're like I'm taking guitar lessons and I know this chord here and I'm like great - show us. I love that student leadership side of it.
Danielle: And I think that's great for those students that have that because I think sometimes in the general classroom setting they sometimes feel like, "I already know this stuff," and so I encourage them and I'll even have my kids sometimes raise their hands. Who has played the ukulele before? Where are my piano players? Not to single them out, but to encourage them and to motivate them to say, "You can be a teacher here and you can answer questions." It's great to see and sometimes it's great to see a student partnership that sort of forms and the information I find - it comes more from another student sometimes than from us. They will listen to that other student a little more and in a great way because they have a different perspective about teaching it than we do. They have a different way of presenting that information so I'll just sit back and watch - well not sit back - but you know within reason, but you know I'll kind of say... I'll sort of see how they teach it because I want to see how they convey the information. It's a learning experience for me as well so that's a really amazing thing to watch in my classroom.
Jessica: I agree. Sometimes they do it more simplistically and I would have gone off and explained it in all of this detail and they'd be like 'what' compared to use a simple answer and the kids just get it and I love that. Yeah.
Danielle: And I - you tend to get bogged down in the technicality of what's happening and they're like here, "Just do this - this - and this." Yeah - okay. You sort of have to let the teacher aspect and the pedagogy of what we know and why we know it and how to do it. We have to let that be, but it's hard to do but I think there's something sort of freeing in watching your students sometimes learn and that sense. It's great about what we do.
Jessica: And how long did you say each station is before they rotate? Or does that change depending on activity?
Danielle: I've tried it a couple of different ways. I have found there is a class - maybe a half a class. My periods are 40 minutes long so I find that like 20 minutes to explain it if you really want it to run well and have the students be independent and know what they're doing. To have about 20 minutes to explain it. I display an agenda and post it as well and that's one of the things that's part of this model. So I'll have like three different columns for a direct, independent, and collaborative. And I have that displayed and then posted as well so that they can bring those things up. They encourage us to link anything that they're going to need so it's right there in the agenda so if it's a play along video for ukulele I'll have that linked or even if I can right into the agenda. So I spend 15-20 minutes going over it and then maybe we do one station that day. And then finish up with 2 stations the next class and then maybe sometimes they just need more time at a station so it might be 15 minutes of make-up time - whatever you didn't get to do. Or now you've got some extra time to build a skill you're working on. So that's what I've found works best. If you're going to use something like that. It takes time so if you haven't done it in a while and now you're using it, they get used to it so it kind of becomes a routine for them and the expectations. So if I take a break from it and then implement it, it takes a little more time to get back in that routine. As with anything that we do. But that has been the method for me I have found works the best if I'm going to implement a lesson like that in my class.
Jessica: And then once they've done all of the stations, do they ever perform a piece together in class or where do you go from there once they've experienced it all?
Danielle: Sure. So a lot of what I do... geez this is always... this is a tricky thing for me. If it's a performance - a demo - I usually let them do it for me. Sometimes I keep it very informal. I try to keep everything. I don't even - I try not to and it's hard to break this habit - I try not to even use the word performance with my class because I find there's a stigma attached to it of very formalized happening or sharing of what they're doing. So I try to watch my wording and I try to use 'demo' or just 'share out.' Even if I'm using it as something that I would expect to be more formalized or summative assessment of what they've been learning. Sometimes I'll just have them demonstrate for me. I'll have them come up in their group and say... For example my 8th graders do a blues song where they write the lyrics and they accompany themselves on the ukulele with the 12 bar blues. So after maybe they go through the stations and they've had some time to collaborate and work, they'll come up to me and in their group they'll share out what they've done. Sometimes it's more - with a class my 7th graders - they do their drumming rhythm workshop, they'll play something that we've worked on as a class so they have to put their own spin on it as a group. So we learn it as a class, but then I encourage them kind of go through. They have to make musical decisions of how they're going to start. How they're going to end it. I'm not there anymore to help. What are you going to do? Are you going to come up with an introduction?
And then we'll share those out. We'll just go around the room and then very informal we'll just do that. In 8th grade I do have them get. They do a cover band song and they have to come up and play for their classmates. Just because it is a little bit of accountability there when they know they're going to have to share it out and play for everybody else. So I do try some sort of demonstration of course of what they've learned and practiced so that i can see and that other students can see as well. It's a nice way to do it as well and sometimes I even ask for volunteers. So if I hear them and hear something great, I'll say, "Would you mind playing that for everybody? That's so great. Can you share that out?" And let them decide that then. And that takes some of the pressure away maybe from everyone having to do it. I always go back and forth on it. I've vacillated between what I want to do. It's hard, but my end goal is always I want them to walk away with a great experience in my class. That hopefully fuels them to continue music in some way shape or form. Whether it's as a consuming or a maker of music and so it's not worth me having anyone feel pressured or anxious to some extent of doing it in front of their peers. So yeah - that's one thing that I always go back and forth on as an educator, but that's sort of where I've found a balance for now. For now. I always say for now that's what I'm doing. That may change. My perspective may change. For now that's how we're doing it.
Jessica: I love the idea of calling it a demo because I'll say the word, "okay we're going to practice." 'Cause we do music sharing - we don't call them performances at our school. Yeah. We call them music sharing because it's like we're sharing where we are right now. If we had continued to work on it, it would look different over time and we could keep working on things, but instead this is like this is where we are now and this is a demonstration of what we've done with it at this point. I love the idea of calling it a demo - just demoing - because I feel like that does take the pressure out of it. Because I'll do the same. I'll have my students share things in class and it might never - a lot of what we do doesn't even end up being shared with parents or anything.
Danielle: Right. Right. Which I would love to and every year I say I'm going to do this. And that's something I would love to do or a goal is to share with the parents more. And share out what their students are doing because I think it's so valuable and sometimes they're shocked when I have shared. And I with their permission say, "Do you mind if I record that and send to your parents?" Sometimes I'll even ask - I haven't done it as much recent - but I'll ask, "Does anybody want me to record this and send this on an email?" And you know I'll get a few students that want to share it and I'll make a point just to say, "Hey I wanted to say your student's doing an awesome job. Here's what they did today." So that's a neat thing to see, but yeah there's this element of just - they sort of do it for the class and then that's it as opposed to when we're in an ensemble setting and they know we're going to have a concert. There's this very formalized sharing of what they've done. It's so different in a music class.
Jessica: And I think we can get hung up on performances as well where it's like if we're only every working for the performance you, I don't know, you lose some of the musical learning that could be done and just enjoyed too. So I don't know. But I also find too if students know I don't know like with my 5th and 6th graders and sometimes my 7th graders if they know a sharing is happening and we still have 2 weeks of class they're like 'What are we going to do because we've already performed' and you're like but the learning doesn't stop at your performance, you know?! You can still grow after that performance. We still have plenty of things to learn and to create. Teaching them that process and that the learning never ends because you had their sharing. I always tell them like after your math test do you stop doing math? No you have your math test and then you continue practicing those skills. You never get rid of addition, subtraction, multiplication. It's the same in music - you keep working on it.
Danielle: Right. And I think us sharing as educators things that we're learning too and showing that we're realizing things and working on things ourselves is so important. I just had that with my students the other day where I was repeating something and it was related to solfege and I was like, "Oh my gosh! Why do we not do that? That makes so much sense!" I went into rehearsal and, of course, their enthusiasm may not have been shared as I was like, "Oh my gosh!" This aha moment, but I said, "I'm sharing this with you not because I expect you to be excited about what I'm telling you necessarily, but because I want you to know that I'm working on things to help you get better. To help us get better as an ensemble." And so I think that there's an element of learning alongside of them that is important and at that level. At a middle school level. I think there's a little respect and something that they can kind of connect with. And they're at an age where we can share that with them and say, "Hey we're learning too! We want to get better. We are improving and we are learning as teachers." And I think that it becomes a little more of a two way street which is nice and I think is really important as well.
Jessica: Yeah I think that's valuable for them to see as well. Do you think - and you've shared several things already - but do you think there's anything you can say has been really successful with students in this model or this learning environment?
Danielle: Sure. I think my biggest thing and I think this is a self-realization and is probably nothing highly musical in terms of what I'm going to say, but I think it's okay for things to be messy. I think it's okay for your classroom to be loud and for a lot of sound to be happening and I think that's a shift in my own thought process. When I started teaching I wanted everything to be very orderly and you know, not to say that chaos needs to ensue by any means. But I think that there's an element when you're standing back and kind of watching things happen and then practice and then make mistakes and you're right there with them and saying, "I'm not sure if this is really going to work out," but some of my favorite things that I teach and some of my favorite workshops that I do when I think about the first time that I did them... were probably a disaster in all honesty and they still are not perfect, but I love that kind of organic - watching this sort of grow and evolve and talking to the students. Seeing what's happening. And I think that sometimes we have to let go of that control for something great to come out of it. And I think that's been a big challenge for me. And a big kind of a like I said at the beginning - a big paradigm shift because I would say probably for the first ten years of my teaching, I probably had a very different perspective if I were to write out what I thought and how I was going to teach or what I was going to teach than how I do things now. And what things are important for my students. But I think that's kind of my biggest thing is it's okay for it to be messy and not go well and not be perfect. And start from scratch. And tell your students that. This is the first time that we're doing this and it might not go well, but I want your feedback. And I think that's where middle school becomes a challenge for people because we expect it to be so orderly and have this very rigid expectation. Letting go of that and kind of seeing what comes of it - I think that's the biggest asset and the biggest positive of that age. Because they can handle some of that and they can take that on and realize what you're doing. That you're trying something to better their learning experience. That's what I've found
Jessica: Yeah. And I think the messy too it's like you said - it doesn't mean that chaos is going on. There's a plan there. Students have things they're working on, but I do find that my classroom is not the quietest classroom in the entire school because it's not like they're reading novels in english or sitting. They're creating music with instruments and voices and so doing a lot of times - and especially if you're in three different areas working on three different things. It can still be structured learning if there's sound going on.
Danielle: Right. Right. So it's always challenging. It's not an easy thing to let go of and as teachers we thrive on organization. We thrive on order. Having a plan. But I think that sometimes that the best plans happen when you're not expecting something. Or it falls apart and then you're rebuilding it because it fell apart. You're making things better and if I'm working with a student teacher that's one of the first things I tell them. It's not going to go by the plan many days. More often than not, but that ability to adapt and change and go with the flow is so important.
Jessica: Absolutely.
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