Season One: Episode Twenty
What Your Administration Wants you to Know with Dr. Julie McLeod
What exactly does your administration want you to know? I spoke with the Head of School at Good Shepherd Episcopal School in Dallas, TX (who is one of my amazing administrators!) and she shared insights that are great for both teachers and administrators.
Dr. Julie McLeod Bio:
Dr. McLeod earned a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration from Oklahoma State University, a Master of Arts in Educational Technology Leadership from George Washington University, and her Doctor of Philosophy from The University of North Texas. Her experience in schools includes time as a 6th grade math teacher, technology partner, and Director of Technology in public and private schools, as well as adjunct professor positions at George Washington University, Texas A&M Commerce, and the University of North Texas. She is the Head of School at Good Shepherd Episcopal School in Dallas, Texas. She is married to her husband Malcolm and has two songs, Thomas and Kirby.
TRANSCRIPT FROM THE EPISODE
Jessica: Hi Julie. So glad you're here.
Julie: Thank you Jessica. Glad to be here.
Jessica: I would like to know a little bit about where you grew up and were either of your parents teachers?
Julie: Yeah, well, I grew up mostly around Texas. Born in Austin, lived many years in the Houston area and then came here to the Dallas area when I was around twelve. I actually have teaching in my blood. My mother was a fourth grade teacher for years and years and years. And my dad taught at the university level when he was doing his doctorate work so I think that it was just part of my DNA.
Jessica: Love it! And what did you dream of doing when you were younger?
Julie: You know, some people have that one profession in their heart and mind that is always there and I didn't really. Mine was just more about - I want to contribute. I want to be able to say I'm doing something meaningful. Those kinds of things rather than one particular.
Jessica: Yeah, I know I wanted to be a ballet dancer or a flight attendant.
Julie: Nice! So there you go.
Jessica: So teaching wasn't quite there yet.
Julie: Right, right, right.
Jessica: So was education on your radar later or were you thinking more in terms of business?
Julie: Right. As you know, education is my second career. So I was in the business world. My original degree is in business administration. I was in the finance/accounting worlds and was climbing the corporate ladder and it was fine. I had children and that's when I decided that if I'm going to be away from my children, it's going to need to be something really meaningful and important work. So the business world wasn't really feeding my soul and so I did a lot of soul searching and decided, okay, I really do need to go into education and this really is, I shouldn't resist if that is in my DNA. So, so that's when I made the switch over.
Jessica: And did you go full-time or were you working and going part-time?
Julie: So I was a mom and did graduate work so that I could ease into. I was subbing. I was doing a lot of projects at work with the schools. Things like that so that's kind of how I eased over.
Jessica: Love it. So I think, personally, that you're experience with business and technology is such an asset as an administrator. Particularly with technology because you were Director of Technology here at Good Shepherd before coming to be Head. So what are some of the technology trends that you see developing in schools?
Julie: I have really two ways to think about that answer. One is really kind of the actual technology trends, but then another piece is what that means for us in education, okay. And some of the actual technology trends we'll probably be seeing more things like augmented reality as a way to really be much more immersive in our experiences. That we can have kids interact with. Potentially into some virtual reality. At this point I think augmented reality is actually a little bit more palatable, a little bit more accessible, and so that's where I think that's where it's going to be headed. Some things around artificial intelligence is really coming along quickly so those are some areas that I think are pretty ripe right now.
One of the things though when I was studying technology and education and learning technologies, technology changes so much that my study was never necessarily about, you know, this microphone that we're looking at or this laptop, but it was about how do you find the affordances of whatever technology is out there. And what it can do for education. And then how do you leverage that affordance to really make and create an experience for kids that you can't have without that technology. So that's really, I think, as we continue to see these changes in technology, we should be continuing to say, 'what does it bring that's different to the learning environment and how can we leverage that?'
Jessica: So using it with what we already know, but implementing it more and helping it take us further.
Julie: Right.
Jessica: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah.
Jessica: How can we integrate technology into a music classroom?
Julie: I think one of the greatest things that technology allows for, and you've probably been doing in music for a very long time, but it is that idea of capturing what students are doing and them being able to self-assess and when they can capture something that's with high fidelity like a recording or a video, then they really can see and hear what it is that they are doing and they can then be set up to self-assess in a very powerful way. Those are things that I think music educators, early childhood educators - they get in a way that sometimes our, some of our high school and college professors need to be looking to those folks a little bit more to say, "How is it that you are able to help children self-assess in a very powerful way and develop their own growth path with you in a supporting, facilitating role?"
Jessica: Yeah. I agree. I know Jennifer Ross, who's the early childhood teacher here, she uses a lot with Seesaw which is a - I mean that's one way to capture it, but she does an amazing job of capturing what's happening in the classroom there and then parents can see it and - it's amazing.
Julie: Exactly. There's also this aspect of using technology to enhance what we can do without it, right? So, for example, with a piece of software, you may be able to layer on all sorts of instruments and stuff and it's just you playing them all and then you layer them together, right. I couldn't, you couldn't necessarily do that alone. You couldn't play seventeen instruments at once! You know?!
Jessica: That could be interesting to try!
Julie: Right?! Or at least I can't! And that's just a tiny example of being able to be more than you can be without the technology.
Jessica; Great example! So I went online, did some digging, and I read your Educational Philosophy Statement and I came across something that you state that I find that is definitely displayed in the way that you lead. And you said,"...facilitating learners from (and you shared a range of ages) I have found that when I activate my students' curiosity, they far exceed my requirements and expectations." And I find that you do this as an administrator as well and so I'd love for you to share some ways that you activate curiosity in our faculty and staff and encourage that.
Julie: Well, first, thank you. That's a huge compliment to me and I appreciate that very much. As you know as a teacher, that speaks to us so thank you.
Jessica: You're welcome.
Julie: I would say one of the things, and I don't ever talk about it in these terms, but I really try to use what I call an invitational model. So we want to try something. We want to do something. We want to play around with a concept or an idea or prototype and it's not about, 'everybody we're gonna do this thing' as much as, 'Hey Jessica. This is something that's kind of right up your alley. Would you be interested with playing around with this idea with us?' I always find that there are people who will volunteer and accept the invitation. And it becomes much more of a ground swell and much more of an authentic experience. Then teachers share with each other what they're doing. They get excited about things. That's contagious, right?! And people say - 'what's going on over there?' Right?! And that's that curiosity. What are you doing that's really, you know, invigorating you? You are so excited about coming to school every day, right? And you could share then, 'I'm working on this neat thing and whatever.' So that invitational model, I think, is huge for us and it allows us to work on the things we do care about. So that's just one example.
One of the other things that we try hard to do here is have a culture that is playful enough and you can, when you're in play you can take risks so teachers hopefully feel like they can try things and it may not work. And that is okay as long as we are being intentional about what we are doing and trying. Being reflective about it and then improving our practice. It really is okay if things don't go the way we want because really, more often than not, we hit home runs that we would never hit had we not tried. And so I think that's another aspect that I really like that is a curiosity aspect is that playfulness and risk taking.
Jessica: Yeah. There's a lot of risk taking. I know I feel like I can try things and if they do fail, because they do sometimes. If they do fail then you go - okay, I learned from that and then you move on. In fact it goes with what you said, "...learning is exciting. Students and teachers in a classroom that honors curiosity and enjoy the hard fun of learning and this is the environment that I seek to build daily." Which that invitational model, I think, really does do that.
What are some ideas or ways as an administrator - I think you kind of shared this already - but what are some things you do that inspire or help teachers at our school grow in this type of environment?
Julie: I did share a few things. One other thing I would say is I'm not interested necessarily in dwelling in why Teacher A or Teacher B isn't at a certain place. They are where they are. And so we, just like a teacher would do with students, it doesn't help to beat that child up because they can't recall what a noun is.
Jessica: Yeah.
Julie: We take that they don't know what a noun is. We help to reenforce what a noun is and we... right so it's about growth. It's about moving forward and progressing. And that's really the key, I think, if we know that that works in our classrooms with children. We know that it's a respectful way to deal with people. That it maintains their dignity. All those things work with big people too.
Jessica: That's true! Yes!
Julie: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. I don't know if you can answer this question or not, but when you find- because you have to have those easy conversations with those teachers who are going above and beyond, but you likely might - I'm assuming - have those hard conversations with teachers who need more support. And so - how do you approach, you know, how do you approach those teachers then during those difficult conversations just with dignity, respect and just working alongside them?
Julie: It's much of that. You probably know Brené Brown?
Jessica: Oh, I love Brené Brown!
Julie: Yes. And she, um, her new book Daring to Lead...Dare to Lead I believe.
Jessica: Dare to Lead. Yeah.
Julie: And it's and she really talks about whole hearts being vulnerable, all of that. And so I would say that when I have to have a hard conversation, it is really about being in that moment with that other human being sitting next to me. And having my heart exposed and vulnerable and helping them to see this isn't saying, "You aren't a really amazing person." It isn't saying anything about that. This particular behavior, for example, is outside our community norms. And so, that, you know. And I think sometimes that, it's again like conversations you would have with a child who makes a decision to do something or not do something that really they need to know it's outside the norms of what we would accept. But they also need to know it doesn't have to define them.
Jessica: Yeah.
Julie: Hm-hm.
Jessica: I hope teachers listening who are having a hard time or even an administrator who might be listening, you know, would consider taking that approach. Yeah, I love that.
Julie: Thank you.
Jessica: Let's go to music programs. So advocating for our music program is definitely something that has been discussed, I know, in meetings with other music educators within the district levels and at state levels and in individual schools. We are definitely encouraged to advocate for our music program, but I think that there's a way that we can do that respectfully and with tact and, you know, just realizing that there's a lot on your plate as an administrator. So I would like to know that, if there are ways that we, as music teachers, can advocate for our music program, but with kindness and, you know, gentleness, and also umm...
Julie: Firmness.
Jessica: Firmness! Yes!
Julie: And I would say that anybody who wants to know how to do that needs to look at Jessica Grant.
Jessica: Oh thank you.
Julie: Because you, you can articulate the benefits of your program. You can articulate why you're doing certain things and you also understand that there are many competing things that are vying for time for our children and from all the other adults in the world of the school. It doesn't make you or the music program weak because you recognize that. In fact, it allows people to say, 'she's not digging in so hard with her music program that she can't appreciate my math program. And so, I'm not going to dig so hard with my math program because I don't need to. Right? 'Cause she sees the value there.' It really almost releases other people from that digging in when you aren't digging in. Right? You have a firmness and you say, 'We're here for a reason and we know there's real benefits to this.' You can articulate that beautifully. And but you also understand that there's benefits to all the other things that are going on in the school and so it is really trying to find that balance and you do it beautifully.
Jessica: Thanks. It can be, I can say, it can be tricky at times because you know, with...and I've found this at almost every school I've worked at, the space limitations and the time limitations. Because, you know, in most schools wherever your performance area is, it's either a gym. Or it's a cafeteria. Or it's connected to some other space and that's common all over. And it's easy to get frustrated when you don't get your first choice of dates for concerts or you're rehearsing, but lunch is going on or you're rehearsing, but a gym class is coming in. And that's just common everywhere. And so, um, I've always tried to be kind and thoughtful about it, but I mean, at home sometimes I'll grumble and complain to my husband. Keep it there, but just going, 'ugh it didn't work,' but at the same time understanding that there's more than just me and what I do. And I think sometimes we can push so hard because we feel like we're the step-children. You know, it's like, we're the fine arts and we're the special or we're just somebody's planning time and I think if we get caught up in that mindset then it undervalues what we do.
Julie: Agree.
Jessica: And it also doesn't look at those teachers need that planning time. I mean, that is, they're working their tails off focusing on the other aspects of a child's life. And so if we're really here to educate the whole child, we have to look at all the areas and all the things we do as a team.
Julie: Exactly.
Jessica: And so I think that's important, but I will say too, that I believe that how we talk to our administrator matters because we can go and advocate and advocate, but when we're pushy it just pushes everything. So how can we approach our administration so that we're heard, but in a way that we're not overly demanding or disgruntled?
Julie: So I think some of that we talked a little bit about with being able to articulate why you're doing things and the value of the particular thing and why it can't happen other ways, right? And all of that. So really being clear and direct is great, but also being understanding when there's more of the picture that an administrator has to take in. And then I think a follow-up: recognizing if you gain ground with an administrator. For example, maybe you didn't have access to your performance area because of something, and you advocated for a whole lot of things, but the one thing you got was a little more access to your performance area or something. Recognizing the administration for that, that they have done for you. So when you do gain ground, making sure that you acknowledged to your administrator, 'I see you've done this work for me. Thank you. On behalf of all the children, I thank you.' Right? That goes a long way.
Jessica: Yeah. I would agree. I know that flexibility and problem solving, I believe, can be critical keys to finding opportunities for our students that might not have been our first choice, but that provide them with musical experiences. I will say, especially when I was a newer teacher, that I would always because I was so passionate about what I do, that if I was told that something couldn't be done or that this couldn't be done and maybe I didn't understand the reasoning behind it, but it was hard not to take it personally. And so are there ways when we're told 'no' or 'this can't be done' and maybe there's not even a complete explanation for it or there's not one we're allowed to be given because there's knowledge beyond what can be shared, are there ways that we can not take it personally and then, anything we can do to then bring about understanding rather than resentment?
Julie: Mm-hm. Good question. Some of that, you know, teachers are a passionate group and I love that. And so what that means is sometimes there's so much passion that it can feel like a personal attack when an answer is 'no' or not quite what you needed or whatever. And so some of that is kind of like you said, in your early teaching career, but you know, now you have some maturity to see some things. So some of that is just that process of maturing and building confidence in yourself as a teacher and the gifts that you are bringing to the children and understanding that, okay.
And then there's, I think, there's never bad questions. So if you don't understand, asking for time to sit down and asking some questions from your administrator I think is fair. And knowing that you may get an answer of, 'I can't tell you that. You know, but I can tell you this other thing.' Finding out, even if you can't get all the details, finding out where those, where are those roadblocks for the administrator and are there... is it appropriate for you and some others, maybe, to come together and be creative around those roadblocks in different ways. Right so in other words, you're not just passing off all of the decision-making on to someone else to be mad about, but that you're willing to take on some of the responsibility for finding solutions that may not be evident. And I think all of that just makes you look like you are a team player and that you're in it for the benefit of the children, for the school itself. All of that. And all of that will give you a much better access, I think, to a yes in the future.
Jessica: Yeah. And along those lines, how can we build a relationship with our administrator or administration because I've always felt like it's a different relationship than from teacher to teacher. You know, just a... if you hear kindergartners, lunch just got out so it's all good.
Julie: And they're all so cute.
Jessica: They're so cute! But as far as building that relationship with your administrator, I really do believe that's important as well.
Julie: I agree and I think some of it is, so for example, I am not a fine arts educator. Okay. So there may be some things that you wish I would do to support you. Tell me! Right?! Or if I happen to stumble and do it right... If I show up at a Music Sharing and that's important to you, say, 'You know, it means so much to me that you come.' Okay. So there's ways that you can very respectfully let your administrators know what is powerful and meaningful to you and because we don't always have that same perspective that you do. I never taught music and so I don't know do you care if I come to the Sharings. Maybe you don't.
Jessica: I do so now you know.
Julie: So now I know. So those types of things, I think, being clear and saying, 'Look it's really important for me if you do this,' and whatever this is, right. And just don't have a laundry list of twelve things right. Maybe one or two things. Take it a little piece at a time, right?! And so for the first year, I just want my administrator to show up for the Sharing. Right?! Ask for that. Then say thank you when it happens. Then the next year, 'Okay now I really also want them to attend my class and pop in once a week or whatever it is.' Ask for that. Right?! Understanding there's a lot of things that go on in our world just like in your world and so if we pour the fire hose on you and say we want you all to do these twelve things this year, it's overwhelming. It's gonna be similar for us. So kind of that slow drip of do this this year, do this this year.
Jessica: And then appreciating what was able to be done.
Julie: Mm-hm.
Jessica: How can we keep because I know there are teachers out here who may not see eye to eye or may not be able to have a conversation like I'm having with you, you know, which I realize is a fortunate thing to have, but how can other teachers keep their morale and motivation going when they don't see eye to eye with an administrator?
Julie: I think that one's really hard. And I would say that for a variety of reasons. First, we are in a business where those things matter to us. If we are philosophically on different pages with others, we feel what we do at a level that's deeper than many other professions. And so that can really affect our well-being. So I would say there's some choices. We can do what we can in our own worlds, right? And so what could make this particular situation better? Is it that I want to find in this school, even if it's not a music educator, someone else who shares my philosophies about children and have that nurture our souls and who we are. Or if it it's I want to find a group of music educators. Maybe they're at a neighboring school. Maybe they're online. You have a Twitter group or whatever, right?! So finding those places where you can go back to the well and be kind of reinvigorated, I think that's crucial.
The students need you to be pulling from your toes every day, right?! And in order to do that, you have to pay attention to your well-being. And if you are constantly at odds at a philosophical level with others that are around you, that is very draining so really paying attention to what will fill my bucket. What can I do that helps my well-being and doing those things is key.
Jessica: Yeah. I think that's good advice. Whether we see eye to eye with our administration or not, how can we as teachers, whether we're music teachers or, you know, classroom teachers - whatever we are, our role - how can we show appreciation to our administration without, I'll say, brown nosing? But like with truly just saying thank you? And not for the benefit of, oh if I do such a thing then I'll get something in return. Just truly to show appreciation. What are some things?
Julie: That's a good question. I think there are things that teachers can do in general that are just about thinking about that administrator as another human being, right?! And so I'm not, if I'm a teacher and I disagree with an administrative decision, not chatting about it with my neighbor next door, but really having the guts to go to the administrator and saying, "I'm struggling with this and I don't want to go to my neighbor so I need to just tell you why I'm struggling. And I get that I may not have the whole picture and I may not get my way, but I just need to share." Right. Some of those little things. Being supportive of our students. Advocating for them. Taking care of all the little business that has to be taken care of so that it doesn't, you know, get into something bigger, right?! Those. When your world is functioning well, it makes everything function better. And so making sure that you're taking care of the things you need to take care of. Not being someone who generates drama. Being open with your administrator when you support something or when you disagree. But then when you turn around and you're talking to other people, you're helping with that cultural piece. And, you know, I think saying 'thank you' goes a long way. It really means so much to me when you stop by my office in the mornings and you just say, 'I was thinking about you' or we visit for a second and you give me a hug. That means the world to me and that kind, those little gestures show that she cares about the school in so many different ways and that, that means, it really does mean a lot. And it sounds goofy, but it means a lot.
Jessica: Yes, sometimes it is those small, small things sometimes. I know when I come in the morning for the early morning groups and they, you know, the students will come in and just greeting them and having those little conversations. I mean, with students, you know, it's so nice. Or just seeing other teachers in the hall and hearing, 'Oh I'm so glad you're feeling better.' Or oh - Like they've thought about you. They care.
Julie: That's right.
Jessica: I love...Two of our teachers, Emily Holzrichter and Becky Barrett, do like a Friday News like Shout-Outs and it's this cool thing where they, throughout the week people share with them so that they know what's going on, but they do this little Shout-Out email that says, you know, "Shout-Out to the Second Grade Team for this" or "Fourth Grade Team for a great Chili Cookoff" or whatever it is, but it's just kind of a morale boost and noticing, 'Hey these are events' or that 'Catherine Scott's daughter is about to be married. She's engaged.' Just really cool personal things, but also 'Great job to so-and-so's class or students.' And I think that means a lot as a teacher too, you know because then we know and can say something to them.
Julie: It builds community, connection, a sense of belonging. All of those pieces that are important too.
Jessica: And this tags along, but I'm just curious if there's anything that teachers have done that have helped and encouraged you?
Julie: Oh every day. Every day! I love that teachers want me to come and see things that are going on in their classrooms. The children do a fantastic job and it doesn't just happen, but they do a fantastic job. There are greeters here, they can talk about what they're doing and why they're learning certain things. And that just, they don't just pick up a magic wand and know how to do that. That is because the teachers have laid those foundational groundwork for years on that. They want to stop by my office and say hello. We love to have little snacks in the back by our office so that when people pop in to, I can say hi to them because sometimes I can't get to every piece of the school. So, you know, a little lure to come here so that I can say hi. That's a great thing! And so, yeah - I think that idea that it's, it is... You can tell when somebody wants to come to work every day and is happy to come to work every day and is feeling fulfilled and when they are struggling. And if I'm seeing that there's fulfillment, that means a lot to me.
Jessica: I love that. How do you stay motivated as a leader? You know, what are some ways or things that you do - not just to keep yourself up on educational trends, but to fill your bucket?
Julie: Mm-hm, mm-hm. That's a really good question and it is one that part of the reason that I'm working very hard to help our teachers to understand the value of well-being is because that's something I don't understand very well. And so it's a way for me to help myself as well, but I think that is something that we as educators consistently put others needs before our own. And it's what makes us really phenomenal at our jobs, but it also means that we - in May, we're so done. We can't even see straight anymore and that's not healthy. And so - together - we need to have some real well-being. You know, we bring in massages. I sign up for a massage. When I go to workshops, I want to have a good evening with a friend who is at that workshop that I don't see much and we'll go to dinner and that's reconnection. Right?! I'm a big nerd on going to conferences and reading, like I'm reading Brené Brown's book now and so always sort of having things to chew on. It helps, but it can also make you feel burned out so making sure that you also have the other side so sometimes I walk away from school and I spend a whole Saturday and I don't email.
Jessica: Good for you!
Julie: And nobody seems to begrudge me of that, right?! And so give yourself permission for that.
Jessica: Yeah. That's a habit that I'm horrible at. I do check, I don't know. Maybe it's the thing well someone will need me. Well if I don't get to this right away, I want to make sure that by Monday, I don't like coming in on Mondays, or any day really, having emails I haven't really seen.
Julie: Sure.
Jessica: Because I want to be prepared for whatever it is. It's like, it's not the end of the world so that's one I could work on.
Julie: We all can.
Jessica: Yeah. You mentioned books. I know that's something. One of my goals every year is to read books and so I've got this whole list running of books I want to read. And I know that you enjoy reading as well. So you mentioned Brené Brown. Are there any other books that kind of are your favorites or go-to's?
Julie: You know, I bounce around a lot with like one book that I read it years ago, but still sticks with me is called Kluge. It's all about the brain and how it really works. It's not filing cabinets. But you know? It's this weird network of, you know, so things that are kind of neuroscience that help give me insights into how people learn. Things that, it's really about, I think, insights into people, right?! That is interesting to me. The better I can connect to people, the better off our whole school can be because then we have healthier relationships with each other as adults, with the children. And it really is all about the community. We learn in community. We learn because of community. And when our community is strong, the learning can be really powerful. And so it's not just an extra if your community is great. It is foundational that your community is great. And so things that I can do to help understand people better, that can help give me some insights into relating, those are the kind of things I like to read about.
Jessica: I love it. I was going to say my books right now, because I bounce around as well. I kind of have my favorite genres too.
Julie: Yes.
Jessica: But I'm reading the Three Musketeers.
Julie: Awesome.
Jessica: And I'm on like page 700 something on that one and then I have an Elin Hilderbrand novel so it's like, kind of like classic-classic and then this kind of fluffy thing.
Julie: You gotta have the fluffy sometimes, right?!
Jessica: Sometimes your brain, you just, going to sleep, you're not thinking about anything.
Julie: Right. Sometimes you have your coffee straight. Sometimes you have it with a little whipped cream on the top!
Jessica: Exactly!
Final Questions:
1) Tea, Coffee, or Something else that suits your fancy - it depends!
Cold out - I like coffee because it's warm. Coffee has to be dressed up.
Otherwise, I like flavored waters.
2) Song/Artist/Genre - very eclectic
Classic Rock and some of the newer things like Straight No Chaser, Pentatonix
3) What you do every day (or try to do) -
I try to find gratitude for what surrounds me every day.
4) Get in touch with you -
website: juliemcleod.org
GSES website: www.gsesdallas.org
What Your Administration Wants you to Know with Dr. Julie McLeod
What exactly does your administration want you to know? I spoke with the Head of School at Good Shepherd Episcopal School in Dallas, TX (who is one of my amazing administrators!) and she shared insights that are great for both teachers and administrators.
Dr. Julie McLeod Bio:
Dr. McLeod earned a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration from Oklahoma State University, a Master of Arts in Educational Technology Leadership from George Washington University, and her Doctor of Philosophy from The University of North Texas. Her experience in schools includes time as a 6th grade math teacher, technology partner, and Director of Technology in public and private schools, as well as adjunct professor positions at George Washington University, Texas A&M Commerce, and the University of North Texas. She is the Head of School at Good Shepherd Episcopal School in Dallas, Texas. She is married to her husband Malcolm and has two songs, Thomas and Kirby.
TRANSCRIPT FROM THE EPISODE
Jessica: Hi Julie. So glad you're here.
Julie: Thank you Jessica. Glad to be here.
Jessica: I would like to know a little bit about where you grew up and were either of your parents teachers?
Julie: Yeah, well, I grew up mostly around Texas. Born in Austin, lived many years in the Houston area and then came here to the Dallas area when I was around twelve. I actually have teaching in my blood. My mother was a fourth grade teacher for years and years and years. And my dad taught at the university level when he was doing his doctorate work so I think that it was just part of my DNA.
Jessica: Love it! And what did you dream of doing when you were younger?
Julie: You know, some people have that one profession in their heart and mind that is always there and I didn't really. Mine was just more about - I want to contribute. I want to be able to say I'm doing something meaningful. Those kinds of things rather than one particular.
Jessica: Yeah, I know I wanted to be a ballet dancer or a flight attendant.
Julie: Nice! So there you go.
Jessica: So teaching wasn't quite there yet.
Julie: Right, right, right.
Jessica: So was education on your radar later or were you thinking more in terms of business?
Julie: Right. As you know, education is my second career. So I was in the business world. My original degree is in business administration. I was in the finance/accounting worlds and was climbing the corporate ladder and it was fine. I had children and that's when I decided that if I'm going to be away from my children, it's going to need to be something really meaningful and important work. So the business world wasn't really feeding my soul and so I did a lot of soul searching and decided, okay, I really do need to go into education and this really is, I shouldn't resist if that is in my DNA. So, so that's when I made the switch over.
Jessica: And did you go full-time or were you working and going part-time?
Julie: So I was a mom and did graduate work so that I could ease into. I was subbing. I was doing a lot of projects at work with the schools. Things like that so that's kind of how I eased over.
Jessica: Love it. So I think, personally, that you're experience with business and technology is such an asset as an administrator. Particularly with technology because you were Director of Technology here at Good Shepherd before coming to be Head. So what are some of the technology trends that you see developing in schools?
Julie: I have really two ways to think about that answer. One is really kind of the actual technology trends, but then another piece is what that means for us in education, okay. And some of the actual technology trends we'll probably be seeing more things like augmented reality as a way to really be much more immersive in our experiences. That we can have kids interact with. Potentially into some virtual reality. At this point I think augmented reality is actually a little bit more palatable, a little bit more accessible, and so that's where I think that's where it's going to be headed. Some things around artificial intelligence is really coming along quickly so those are some areas that I think are pretty ripe right now.
One of the things though when I was studying technology and education and learning technologies, technology changes so much that my study was never necessarily about, you know, this microphone that we're looking at or this laptop, but it was about how do you find the affordances of whatever technology is out there. And what it can do for education. And then how do you leverage that affordance to really make and create an experience for kids that you can't have without that technology. So that's really, I think, as we continue to see these changes in technology, we should be continuing to say, 'what does it bring that's different to the learning environment and how can we leverage that?'
Jessica: So using it with what we already know, but implementing it more and helping it take us further.
Julie: Right.
Jessica: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah.
Jessica: How can we integrate technology into a music classroom?
Julie: I think one of the greatest things that technology allows for, and you've probably been doing in music for a very long time, but it is that idea of capturing what students are doing and them being able to self-assess and when they can capture something that's with high fidelity like a recording or a video, then they really can see and hear what it is that they are doing and they can then be set up to self-assess in a very powerful way. Those are things that I think music educators, early childhood educators - they get in a way that sometimes our, some of our high school and college professors need to be looking to those folks a little bit more to say, "How is it that you are able to help children self-assess in a very powerful way and develop their own growth path with you in a supporting, facilitating role?"Jessica: Yeah. I agree. I know Jennifer Ross, who's the early childhood teacher here, she uses a lot with Seesaw which is a - I mean that's one way to capture it, but she does an amazing job of capturing what's happening in the classroom there and then parents can see it and - it's amazing.
Julie: Exactly. There's also this aspect of using technology to enhance what we can do without it, right? So, for example, with a piece of software, you may be able to layer on all sorts of instruments and stuff and it's just you playing them all and then you layer them together, right. I couldn't, you couldn't necessarily do that alone. You couldn't play seventeen instruments at once! You know?!
Jessica: That could be interesting to try!
Julie: Right?! Or at least I can't! And that's just a tiny example of being able to be more than you can be without the technology.
Jessica; Great example! So I went online, did some digging, and I read your Educational Philosophy Statement and I came across something that you state that I find that is definitely displayed in the way that you lead. And you said,"...facilitating learners from (and you shared a range of ages) I have found that when I activate my students' curiosity, they far exceed my requirements and expectations." And I find that you do this as an administrator as well and so I'd love for you to share some ways that you activate curiosity in our faculty and staff and encourage that.Julie: Well, first, thank you. That's a huge compliment to me and I appreciate that very much. As you know as a teacher, that speaks to us so thank you.
Jessica: You're welcome.
Julie: I would say one of the things, and I don't ever talk about it in these terms, but I really try to use what I call an invitational model. So we want to try something. We want to do something. We want to play around with a concept or an idea or prototype and it's not about, 'everybody we're gonna do this thing' as much as, 'Hey Jessica. This is something that's kind of right up your alley. Would you be interested with playing around with this idea with us?' I always find that there are people who will volunteer and accept the invitation. And it becomes much more of a ground swell and much more of an authentic experience. Then teachers share with each other what they're doing. They get excited about things. That's contagious, right?! And people say - 'what's going on over there?' Right?! And that's that curiosity. What are you doing that's really, you know, invigorating you? You are so excited about coming to school every day, right? And you could share then, 'I'm working on this neat thing and whatever.' So that invitational model, I think, is huge for us and it allows us to work on the things we do care about. So that's just one example.
One of the other things that we try hard to do here is have a culture that is playful enough and you can, when you're in play you can take risks so teachers hopefully feel like they can try things and it may not work. And that is okay as long as we are being intentional about what we are doing and trying. Being reflective about it and then improving our practice. It really is okay if things don't go the way we want because really, more often than not, we hit home runs that we would never hit had we not tried. And so I think that's another aspect that I really like that is a curiosity aspect is that playfulness and risk taking.
Jessica: Yeah. There's a lot of risk taking. I know I feel like I can try things and if they do fail, because they do sometimes. If they do fail then you go - okay, I learned from that and then you move on. In fact it goes with what you said, "...learning is exciting. Students and teachers in a classroom that honors curiosity and enjoy the hard fun of learning and this is the environment that I seek to build daily." Which that invitational model, I think, really does do that.
What are some ideas or ways as an administrator - I think you kind of shared this already - but what are some things you do that inspire or help teachers at our school grow in this type of environment?
Julie: I did share a few things. One other thing I would say is I'm not interested necessarily in dwelling in why Teacher A or Teacher B isn't at a certain place. They are where they are. And so we, just like a teacher would do with students, it doesn't help to beat that child up because they can't recall what a noun is.
Jessica: Yeah.
Julie: We take that they don't know what a noun is. We help to reenforce what a noun is and we... right so it's about growth. It's about moving forward and progressing. And that's really the key, I think, if we know that that works in our classrooms with children. We know that it's a respectful way to deal with people. That it maintains their dignity. All those things work with big people too.
Jessica: That's true! Yes!
Julie: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. I don't know if you can answer this question or not, but when you find- because you have to have those easy conversations with those teachers who are going above and beyond, but you likely might - I'm assuming - have those hard conversations with teachers who need more support. And so - how do you approach, you know, how do you approach those teachers then during those difficult conversations just with dignity, respect and just working alongside them?
Julie: It's much of that. You probably know Brené Brown?
Jessica: Oh, I love Brené Brown!
Julie: Yes. And she, um, her new book Daring to Lead...Dare to Lead I believe.
Jessica: Dare to Lead. Yeah.
Julie: And it's and she really talks about whole hearts being vulnerable, all of that. And so I would say that when I have to have a hard conversation, it is really about being in that moment with that other human being sitting next to me. And having my heart exposed and vulnerable and helping them to see this isn't saying, "You aren't a really amazing person." It isn't saying anything about that. This particular behavior, for example, is outside our community norms. And so, that, you know. And I think sometimes that, it's again like conversations you would have with a child who makes a decision to do something or not do something that really they need to know it's outside the norms of what we would accept. But they also need to know it doesn't have to define them.
Jessica: Yeah.
Julie: Hm-hm.
Jessica: I hope teachers listening who are having a hard time or even an administrator who might be listening, you know, would consider taking that approach. Yeah, I love that.
Julie: Thank you.
Jessica: Let's go to music programs. So advocating for our music program is definitely something that has been discussed, I know, in meetings with other music educators within the district levels and at state levels and in individual schools. We are definitely encouraged to advocate for our music program, but I think that there's a way that we can do that respectfully and with tact and, you know, just realizing that there's a lot on your plate as an administrator. So I would like to know that, if there are ways that we, as music teachers, can advocate for our music program, but with kindness and, you know, gentleness, and also umm...
Julie: Firmness.
Jessica: Firmness! Yes!
Julie: And I would say that anybody who wants to know how to do that needs to look at Jessica Grant.
Jessica: Oh thank you.
Julie: Because you, you can articulate the benefits of your program. You can articulate why you're doing certain things and you also understand that there are many competing things that are vying for time for our children and from all the other adults in the world of the school. It doesn't make you or the music program weak because you recognize that. In fact, it allows people to say, 'she's not digging in so hard with her music program that she can't appreciate my math program. And so, I'm not going to dig so hard with my math program because I don't need to. Right? 'Cause she sees the value there.' It really almost releases other people from that digging in when you aren't digging in. Right? You have a firmness and you say, 'We're here for a reason and we know there's real benefits to this.' You can articulate that beautifully. And but you also understand that there's benefits to all the other things that are going on in the school and so it is really trying to find that balance and you do it beautifully.
Jessica: Thanks. It can be, I can say, it can be tricky at times because you know, with...and I've found this at almost every school I've worked at, the space limitations and the time limitations. Because, you know, in most schools wherever your performance area is, it's either a gym. Or it's a cafeteria. Or it's connected to some other space and that's common all over. And it's easy to get frustrated when you don't get your first choice of dates for concerts or you're rehearsing, but lunch is going on or you're rehearsing, but a gym class is coming in. And that's just common everywhere. And so, um, I've always tried to be kind and thoughtful about it, but I mean, at home sometimes I'll grumble and complain to my husband. Keep it there, but just going, 'ugh it didn't work,' but at the same time understanding that there's more than just me and what I do. And I think sometimes we can push so hard because we feel like we're the step-children. You know, it's like, we're the fine arts and we're the special or we're just somebody's planning time and I think if we get caught up in that mindset then it undervalues what we do.
Julie: Agree.
Jessica: And it also doesn't look at those teachers need that planning time. I mean, that is, they're working their tails off focusing on the other aspects of a child's life. And so if we're really here to educate the whole child, we have to look at all the areas and all the things we do as a team.
Julie: Exactly.
Jessica: And so I think that's important, but I will say too, that I believe that how we talk to our administrator matters because we can go and advocate and advocate, but when we're pushy it just pushes everything. So how can we approach our administration so that we're heard, but in a way that we're not overly demanding or disgruntled?
Julie: So I think some of that we talked a little bit about with being able to articulate why you're doing things and the value of the particular thing and why it can't happen other ways, right? And all of that. So really being clear and direct is great, but also being understanding when there's more of the picture that an administrator has to take in. And then I think a follow-up: recognizing if you gain ground with an administrator. For example, maybe you didn't have access to your performance area because of something, and you advocated for a whole lot of things, but the one thing you got was a little more access to your performance area or something. Recognizing the administration for that, that they have done for you. So when you do gain ground, making sure that you acknowledged to your administrator, 'I see you've done this work for me. Thank you. On behalf of all the children, I thank you.' Right? That goes a long way.Jessica: Yeah. I would agree. I know that flexibility and problem solving, I believe, can be critical keys to finding opportunities for our students that might not have been our first choice, but that provide them with musical experiences. I will say, especially when I was a newer teacher, that I would always because I was so passionate about what I do, that if I was told that something couldn't be done or that this couldn't be done and maybe I didn't understand the reasoning behind it, but it was hard not to take it personally. And so are there ways when we're told 'no' or 'this can't be done' and maybe there's not even a complete explanation for it or there's not one we're allowed to be given because there's knowledge beyond what can be shared, are there ways that we can not take it personally and then, anything we can do to then bring about understanding rather than resentment?
Julie: Mm-hm. Good question. Some of that, you know, teachers are a passionate group and I love that. And so what that means is sometimes there's so much passion that it can feel like a personal attack when an answer is 'no' or not quite what you needed or whatever. And so some of that is kind of like you said, in your early teaching career, but you know, now you have some maturity to see some things. So some of that is just that process of maturing and building confidence in yourself as a teacher and the gifts that you are bringing to the children and understanding that, okay.
And then there's, I think, there's never bad questions. So if you don't understand, asking for time to sit down and asking some questions from your administrator I think is fair. And knowing that you may get an answer of, 'I can't tell you that. You know, but I can tell you this other thing.' Finding out, even if you can't get all the details, finding out where those, where are those roadblocks for the administrator and are there... is it appropriate for you and some others, maybe, to come together and be creative around those roadblocks in different ways. Right so in other words, you're not just passing off all of the decision-making on to someone else to be mad about, but that you're willing to take on some of the responsibility for finding solutions that may not be evident. And I think all of that just makes you look like you are a team player and that you're in it for the benefit of the children, for the school itself. All of that. And all of that will give you a much better access, I think, to a yes in the future.
Jessica: Yeah. And along those lines, how can we build a relationship with our administrator or administration because I've always felt like it's a different relationship than from teacher to teacher. You know, just a... if you hear kindergartners, lunch just got out so it's all good.
Julie: And they're all so cute.
Jessica: They're so cute! But as far as building that relationship with your administrator, I really do believe that's important as well.
Julie: I agree and I think some of it is, so for example, I am not a fine arts educator. Okay. So there may be some things that you wish I would do to support you. Tell me! Right?! Or if I happen to stumble and do it right... If I show up at a Music Sharing and that's important to you, say, 'You know, it means so much to me that you come.' Okay. So there's ways that you can very respectfully let your administrators know what is powerful and meaningful to you and because we don't always have that same perspective that you do. I never taught music and so I don't know do you care if I come to the Sharings. Maybe you don't.
Jessica: I do so now you know.
Julie: So now I know. So those types of things, I think, being clear and saying, 'Look it's really important for me if you do this,' and whatever this is, right. And just don't have a laundry list of twelve things right. Maybe one or two things. Take it a little piece at a time, right?! And so for the first year, I just want my administrator to show up for the Sharing. Right?! Ask for that. Then say thank you when it happens. Then the next year, 'Okay now I really also want them to attend my class and pop in once a week or whatever it is.' Ask for that. Right?! Understanding there's a lot of things that go on in our world just like in your world and so if we pour the fire hose on you and say we want you all to do these twelve things this year, it's overwhelming. It's gonna be similar for us. So kind of that slow drip of do this this year, do this this year.
Jessica: And then appreciating what was able to be done.
Julie: Mm-hm.
Jessica: How can we keep because I know there are teachers out here who may not see eye to eye or may not be able to have a conversation like I'm having with you, you know, which I realize is a fortunate thing to have, but how can other teachers keep their morale and motivation going when they don't see eye to eye with an administrator?
Julie: I think that one's really hard. And I would say that for a variety of reasons. First, we are in a business where those things matter to us. If we are philosophically on different pages with others, we feel what we do at a level that's deeper than many other professions. And so that can really affect our well-being. So I would say there's some choices. We can do what we can in our own worlds, right? And so what could make this particular situation better? Is it that I want to find in this school, even if it's not a music educator, someone else who shares my philosophies about children and have that nurture our souls and who we are. Or if it it's I want to find a group of music educators. Maybe they're at a neighboring school. Maybe they're online. You have a Twitter group or whatever, right?! So finding those places where you can go back to the well and be kind of reinvigorated, I think that's crucial.
The students need you to be pulling from your toes every day, right?! And in order to do that, you have to pay attention to your well-being. And if you are constantly at odds at a philosophical level with others that are around you, that is very draining so really paying attention to what will fill my bucket. What can I do that helps my well-being and doing those things is key.
Jessica: Yeah. I think that's good advice. Whether we see eye to eye with our administration or not, how can we as teachers, whether we're music teachers or, you know, classroom teachers - whatever we are, our role - how can we show appreciation to our administration without, I'll say, brown nosing? But like with truly just saying thank you? And not for the benefit of, oh if I do such a thing then I'll get something in return. Just truly to show appreciation. What are some things?
Julie: That's a good question. I think there are things that teachers can do in general that are just about thinking about that administrator as another human being, right?! And so I'm not, if I'm a teacher and I disagree with an administrative decision, not chatting about it with my neighbor next door, but really having the guts to go to the administrator and saying, "I'm struggling with this and I don't want to go to my neighbor so I need to just tell you why I'm struggling. And I get that I may not have the whole picture and I may not get my way, but I just need to share." Right. Some of those little things. Being supportive of our students. Advocating for them. Taking care of all the little business that has to be taken care of so that it doesn't, you know, get into something bigger, right?! Those. When your world is functioning well, it makes everything function better. And so making sure that you're taking care of the things you need to take care of. Not being someone who generates drama. Being open with your administrator when you support something or when you disagree. But then when you turn around and you're talking to other people, you're helping with that cultural piece. And, you know, I think saying 'thank you' goes a long way. It really means so much to me when you stop by my office in the mornings and you just say, 'I was thinking about you' or we visit for a second and you give me a hug. That means the world to me and that kind, those little gestures show that she cares about the school in so many different ways and that, that means, it really does mean a lot. And it sounds goofy, but it means a lot.
Jessica: Yes, sometimes it is those small, small things sometimes. I know when I come in the morning for the early morning groups and they, you know, the students will come in and just greeting them and having those little conversations. I mean, with students, you know, it's so nice. Or just seeing other teachers in the hall and hearing, 'Oh I'm so glad you're feeling better.' Or oh - Like they've thought about you. They care.
Julie: That's right.
Jessica: I love...Two of our teachers, Emily Holzrichter and Becky Barrett, do like a Friday News like Shout-Outs and it's this cool thing where they, throughout the week people share with them so that they know what's going on, but they do this little Shout-Out email that says, you know, "Shout-Out to the Second Grade Team for this" or "Fourth Grade Team for a great Chili Cookoff" or whatever it is, but it's just kind of a morale boost and noticing, 'Hey these are events' or that 'Catherine Scott's daughter is about to be married. She's engaged.' Just really cool personal things, but also 'Great job to so-and-so's class or students.' And I think that means a lot as a teacher too, you know because then we know and can say something to them.
Julie: It builds community, connection, a sense of belonging. All of those pieces that are important too.
Jessica: And this tags along, but I'm just curious if there's anything that teachers have done that have helped and encouraged you?
Julie: Oh every day. Every day! I love that teachers want me to come and see things that are going on in their classrooms. The children do a fantastic job and it doesn't just happen, but they do a fantastic job. There are greeters here, they can talk about what they're doing and why they're learning certain things. And that just, they don't just pick up a magic wand and know how to do that. That is because the teachers have laid those foundational groundwork for years on that. They want to stop by my office and say hello. We love to have little snacks in the back by our office so that when people pop in to, I can say hi to them because sometimes I can't get to every piece of the school. So, you know, a little lure to come here so that I can say hi. That's a great thing! And so, yeah - I think that idea that it's, it is... You can tell when somebody wants to come to work every day and is happy to come to work every day and is feeling fulfilled and when they are struggling. And if I'm seeing that there's fulfillment, that means a lot to me.
Jessica: I love that. How do you stay motivated as a leader? You know, what are some ways or things that you do - not just to keep yourself up on educational trends, but to fill your bucket?
Julie: Mm-hm, mm-hm. That's a really good question and it is one that part of the reason that I'm working very hard to help our teachers to understand the value of well-being is because that's something I don't understand very well. And so it's a way for me to help myself as well, but I think that is something that we as educators consistently put others needs before our own. And it's what makes us really phenomenal at our jobs, but it also means that we - in May, we're so done. We can't even see straight anymore and that's not healthy. And so - together - we need to have some real well-being. You know, we bring in massages. I sign up for a massage. When I go to workshops, I want to have a good evening with a friend who is at that workshop that I don't see much and we'll go to dinner and that's reconnection. Right?! I'm a big nerd on going to conferences and reading, like I'm reading Brené Brown's book now and so always sort of having things to chew on. It helps, but it can also make you feel burned out so making sure that you also have the other side so sometimes I walk away from school and I spend a whole Saturday and I don't email.
Jessica: Good for you!
Julie: And nobody seems to begrudge me of that, right?! And so give yourself permission for that.
Jessica: Yeah. That's a habit that I'm horrible at. I do check, I don't know. Maybe it's the thing well someone will need me. Well if I don't get to this right away, I want to make sure that by Monday, I don't like coming in on Mondays, or any day really, having emails I haven't really seen.
Julie: Sure.
Jessica: Because I want to be prepared for whatever it is. It's like, it's not the end of the world so that's one I could work on.
Julie: We all can.
Jessica: Yeah. You mentioned books. I know that's something. One of my goals every year is to read books and so I've got this whole list running of books I want to read. And I know that you enjoy reading as well. So you mentioned Brené Brown. Are there any other books that kind of are your favorites or go-to's?
Julie: You know, I bounce around a lot with like one book that I read it years ago, but still sticks with me is called Kluge. It's all about the brain and how it really works. It's not filing cabinets. But you know? It's this weird network of, you know, so things that are kind of neuroscience that help give me insights into how people learn. Things that, it's really about, I think, insights into people, right?! That is interesting to me. The better I can connect to people, the better off our whole school can be because then we have healthier relationships with each other as adults, with the children. And it really is all about the community. We learn in community. We learn because of community. And when our community is strong, the learning can be really powerful. And so it's not just an extra if your community is great. It is foundational that your community is great. And so things that I can do to help understand people better, that can help give me some insights into relating, those are the kind of things I like to read about.
Jessica: I love it. I was going to say my books right now, because I bounce around as well. I kind of have my favorite genres too.
Julie: Yes.
Jessica: But I'm reading the Three Musketeers.
Julie: Awesome.
Jessica: And I'm on like page 700 something on that one and then I have an Elin Hilderbrand novel so it's like, kind of like classic-classic and then this kind of fluffy thing.
Julie: You gotta have the fluffy sometimes, right?!
Jessica: Sometimes your brain, you just, going to sleep, you're not thinking about anything.
Julie: Right. Sometimes you have your coffee straight. Sometimes you have it with a little whipped cream on the top!
Jessica: Exactly!
Final Questions:
1) Tea, Coffee, or Something else that suits your fancy - it depends!
Cold out - I like coffee because it's warm. Coffee has to be dressed up.
Otherwise, I like flavored waters.
2) Song/Artist/Genre - very eclectic
Classic Rock and some of the newer things like Straight No Chaser, Pentatonix
3) What you do every day (or try to do) -
I try to find gratitude for what surrounds me every day.
4) Get in touch with you -
website: juliemcleod.org
GSES website: www.gsesdallas.org
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